RhinoPower Ltd

TechSupport · Guru

RE: Howdy.

Bobzilla · Member

Been a wild week! Got all my replacement parts. Sat finished up wiring faux paus from previous owners. Fixed a half dozen broken wires, pulled a dozen splicers out, pulled about 10' of non-necessary wire..... Had speaker wire soldered to the headlight switch and run down to the body for a ground. Lots of crap.

Good news all electrical gremlins are gone. Bad news: Fuel pump was the culprit..... So I got one of those comingthis week too! Hope to have it back together this weekend.

I now have an ECU with a prom socket installed, and a stock chip and 2 aftermarkets to get an idea of what type of maps they run. And an idea on how to improve hopefully.

Will keep you updated and hope to be getting really "technical" soon.

TechSupport · Guru

While you are in amongst the wiring is your diagnostic socket wired to the ECU?

Bobzilla · Member

ok... Well I pulled the trigger on the F3 ECU with the prom socket soldered in with a couple proms. Then Sunday pulled the dash and pulled the column, and pulled the ECU that was in it. Couldn't find any real fault, other than it being an I5 California emissions ECU. Found what could likely be the root cause of the short, a melted (then hacked) main power cable from the underhood fusebox. Melted. Then a pair of wires sorta soldered togerther with a 40A fuse runnign to them. Plus about 9 different splices off the inside fusebox and the root cause of having no dash or tailights....

What a mess. Looks like I could have it runnign inside of a week if I can get all teh parts together, then I can take the time to work on the Prom reading/editing stuff over the winter. Thanks for the guidance so far... You guys are saving me a ton of cash and getting the car back into fighting trim sooner.

Swifted · Member

Hi Bob, welcome to the forum!

TechSupport · Guru

I can create the Tuner Pro def. file from a binary file. It doesn't usually take very long to find the maps, Tuner Pro has a 3D data viewer that helps to locate them. I understand that the GT has the twin cam G13B engine so we already have two sets of 'stock' maps.

-- Edited by Rhinoman on Sunday 18th of October 2009 10:00:49 PM

fordem · Senior Member

OK - Bob - you're the one who said you were a glutton for punishment - looks to me like this might have one heck of a learning curve.

James - correct me if I'm wrong here please.

TunerPro uses a definition file (.xdf) to define the locations of the different maps in the ECU's EPROM file (.bin), so as an example, if you were to download TunerPro (or TunerProRT) and the Swift_F5.xdf & SwiftF5.bin files (these two from James' webpage at www.rhinower.org you would be able to look at and modify the fuel & ignition maps for the F5 ECU, and you could do the same for the I2 ECU using the appropriate I2 files, again from James' page.

Where it becomes tricky is that you may need to create your own .xdf file for your ECU - the .bin file should not be that difficult - I believe that can be done by removing the EPROM from the ECU, inserting it into an EPROM reader/burner and reading it into a file.

Now I'd be the first to admit - creating the .xdf is probably beyond my skills - tweaking a .bin file using a previously created .xdf, that I think I can do, so this is probably where I'd start re-considering that standalone, especially if it comes with a base map for a stock engine.

TechSupport · Guru

The Tuner Pro definitions were already posted on my website, links below:

http://www.rhinopower.org/ECUs/64B52/64B52.html

http://www.rhinopower.org/ECUs/64E10/64E10.html

TechSupport · Guru

There isn't an 'official' Tuner Pro definition file, I've created a couple of very basic definition files from disassembling the binary files for the F5 and I2 GTI ECUs. I'll have to dig them out and put them up here.

fordem · Senior Member

That's why I'm leaving it to James biggrin

- I mentioned it because he has a link to it, and because I've seen him refer to it before, so I know it's what he uses - I suspect it may be the DSM support, more than the GM, based on what I've read, many of the Suzuki ECUs seem to be a DSM design, I know the one in my GV is manufactured by Mitsubishi and uses a Mitsubishi processor.

Bobzilla · Member

I checked out tuner pro but didn't see Suzuki support. Would it be under GM? Meh.... I got too much to do FIRST, but like I said I'm a glutton for punishment and love knowledge.... THanks for all the help so far!

fordem · Senior Member

Good idea.

I'll leave it to James to advise on the software - I suspect you'll need two peices of software, one that drives the burner (and which should come with the burner) - you basically tell it which file you want on the PROM, it doesn't know (or care) that the file is for an ECU, it's sole purpose will be to take the file that you choose and burn it to the chip and a second one that let's you edit the file and change the mappings - this one will need to know about the ECU.

If you loke in the forum you'll find that James has a link to TunerPro - so that would be the second one I mentioned.

Bobzilla · Member

Funny.. I just found a Swift ECU with the removable socket already installed For $200..... prom burner is ABOUT $100 WITH CABLES. Proms are $5 each. What software will I need to make new chips?

I don't mind popping the ECU out to swap chips if the socket allows me to "plug annd play" a new prom. Resoldering a new chip in everytime is not something I wanted to do.

Good idea or bad?

fordem · Senior Member

The condition of the ECU is likely to be the deciding factor here.

You need to find out why it's blowing fuses, that's either a wiring problem (external to the unit) or an internal fault.

Try removing the ECU and replacing the fuses and then switching on - if the fuses blow it's definitely external to the ECU, if they hold, it could be internal or an external fault on one of the ECU outputs.

TechSupport · Guru

If you send me your ECU then I'll check it out for you.
Cheers
James

Bobzilla · Member

I ran the car from April until it popped a fuse in Sept. Car ran pretty decent, for what it had. I do not currently have a good ecu. I also haven't gotten the wiring sorted and fixed either.... at this point I'm trying to figure which wuld be the better way to go to get what I want.

fordem · Senior Member

Iit looks to me like we're going around in a circle - do you have a functional stock ECU?

If the ECU in the car is fried, then you need to either get it repaired or replaced - an emulator will be of very little use without a functional ECU.

What the emulator is (or does) is fit in place of the stock EPROM chip and allow easy changes to the program in the EPROM without having to go through the disassemble, erase, burn, reassemble cycle I mentioned in my last post.

I'm thinking the previous owner did a little more than just hot wire the ignition - which does nothing more than apply 12V to where 12V should go - maybe he jump started & reversed polarity on the battery or something along those lines.

It's not impossible for the chip to be good and it's also possible for it to be blown - and the only way to know is to remove it, put it in a reader of some sort and attempt to read it (most burners will allow reading).

May be it's time to start crunching numbers - on the one hand we have $1000 bucks for a standalone that will work with the existing harness - and on the other hand we have cost of a good stock ECU, an emulator, an EPROM burner, an EPROM eraser, plus half a dozen or so EPROMS.

Bobzilla · Member

Sadly I don't have a stock chip. All I have is what's in the fried one in the car. I would assume the chip will still be good? Previous owner hot wired the ignition to work, spiked the ecu and now it blows ECU And IGN fuses left and right. I'm pulling the dash and installing a new column with switch and putting the wiring back to stock.

fordem · Senior Member

Just my $0.02...

The advantage of having the emulator is that it allows you to make repeated changes without having to program multiple chips and swap them making for a considerable saving in time - 5~15 minutes to erase an EPROM and another few minutes to burn - plus the time taken to physically remove & reinstall the chip in the ECU and the ECU in the car.

I've also not had the greatest of luck with EPROMS, I always seem to have them die on me in the erase/burn cycle.

More importantly - what this brings to mind is more hardware requirements - you're going to need an EPROM programmer and a UV eraser - unless you choose to leave the emulator permanently in the vehicle.

-- Edited by fordem on Thursday 15th of October 2009 06:38:55 PM

TechSupport · Guru

First thing to do is to buy or borrow an EPROM programmer (burner) and find out whats in the chip. Do you have a stock chip to compare it to? If you're on a budget then you can modify the ECU to run multiple maps on a switch and then programme up a couple at a time, get a couple of spare ICs and you can do a lot without an emulator.

-- Edited by Rhinoman on Thursday 15th of October 2009 06:13:07 PM

Bobzilla · Member

The long term goal for the car is to be a ITB Club Racer in about 2-3 years max, depending on funds. But for right now I am trying to find about 10more hp out of this thing. I had it dyno'd last April, with 201k miles on the stock head and a chip of unknown origin I put down 90hp and 80ft/lbs of torque, running scarily lean the entire run. Car fell flat on it's face about 7200rpms power wise, and dropped from that point to 8k. The lifters tick and made a little noise, so they are getting replaced this winter as well. I figured they weren't pumping up, not allowing the valves to open fully, really hurting power in the top end.

Thanks for the pointers and start..... I'll keep checking in and doing my own research as well.

fordem · Senior Member

This is one time it's nice to be wrong smile

James will be the one to tell what else you need, but from a hardware stand point - I'd say a laptop and maybe a wideband O2 sensor - preferably one that supports logging - we use the Innovate LM1.

Access to a dyno would be nice, but we do not have access to one (there is NO dyno facility in this country), so we substitute track time and will tune "on the fly" as the driver laps - you MUST have two people for this - one to drive and the other to tune.

Essentially you load the emulator with the code from the original PROM and the engine should start and run and then you tweak the maps as required - what we do is start with a conservative ignition advance, and then work on the fuel curve - a tad rich is better than lean (especially with a rotary, where the slightest hint of detonation will destroy the apex seals) and then go back and increase the ignition advance.

You could go back and tweak the fuel again and basically repeat the cycle, but we usually leave the fuel a hair rich - better for power and again safer for the seals.

-- Edited by fordem on Thursday 15th of October 2009 03:57:54 PM

Bobzilla · Member

So I'm looking into one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Moates-Ostrich-2-0-USB-Eprom-Emulator_W0QQitemZ290357436933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item439aa6e205

What other hardware is typically needed?

Yes, the Adaptronic has 6 different "tunes" available to downlaod for free off the site, and offers full range changes. It looks good, seems to have a decent following, I just would like to not have to spend $1000 up front.

TechSupport · Guru

I have the Moates Ostrich emulator which will work with the earlier Swift GTI ECUs.

-- Edited by Rhinoman on Thursday 15th of October 2009 12:44:40 PM

fordem · Senior Member

Well that certainly clears things up - once you have the ECU number and maybe a picture of the innards, James should be able to tell you if it can be flashed or if you have to put in a socket and so on.

I have not heard of anyone doing a PROM emulator for these, but I haven't looked that hard, so I could be wrong and the same thing goes for a plug & play stand alone (I assume that's what you mean by P&P).

I was going to point you over to the TeamSwift forum - but I found you over there and the Adaptronic ECU with the plug & play harness,so you're ahead of me there.

In that thread you mention an aversion to getting into the wiring - there is no way around it, for a track car, I would strip the existing harness and remove all the unnecessary wiring, it might sound like a lot of work, but it'll be better in the long run.

My assumption is that an ECU advertised as plug & play will come with a base map for both fuel & ignition that should start & run a stock motor - if you don't go with the plug & play any standalone should be documented well enough to get you to a point where you can start the engine.

I have limited experience (and all rotary) mostly on the Electromotive Tec2 and Autronic SM4 but both will allow you to input a set of parameters that get you a base map that will let you start the engine and work from there.

The picture below is a tube framed RX7 powered by a two rotor 13b, that a friend of mine runs in the Caribbean - it holds the lap record on Guyana's South Dakota circuit (this is our home track) and the lap record for 2WD cars at the Bushy Park circuit in Barbados. All engine electronics are handled by my son & myself.

Bobzilla · Member

well, the car is an auto-x only car. It has a nice 4-1 header, 2.25" side exit exhaust, fabricating my own CAI box, head has new suzuki sport springs and valves with a 3-angle valve job, head was milled, new rings, bearings, oil pump along with a whole host of suspension changes.

What I want is power. I want somethign to be able to dial in what I have and make it work the best. I was planning on a $1000 P&P standalone, but would love to spend that money on tires, entry fees and tow rig gas! I started to get into the old GM Prom stuff bac when I had a couple TBI Chevrolet trucks, but never took the big leap.

I guess what I need is someone to walk me through from the beginning on what I need to start with. I am not illiterate mechanically or computers, but I do need instruction and guidance.

In a week or two I'll get the dash pulled to fix the wiring nightmare that is my column and I'll get the ECU # then. I've put this off as I was burnt out on working on the little bugger!

Thanks a lot!

fordem · Senior Member

Hi Bob,

Looking at your post it seems like you need a replacement for the original ECU due to a problem with it - if that's correct, I'd say your best option is - exactly that - replace it with a similar unit - try a junkyard, eBay or a want-to-buy ad on one of the forums.

I've considered what I would/should do in the same circumstances and I think I would opt for a standalone, but I believe my situation is slightly different to yours - if I'm right you have a US spec Swift and it should not be that difficult to pick up a good used ECU. On the other hand, I'm driving an African spec GV, which I believe is a lot rarer.

The problem with a standalone is cost - they can be quite expensive - possibly more than you'd be willing to pay to keep a car on the road.

TechSupport · Guru

Hi
Welcome to the forum. Which ECU do you have? do you have any pics of the circuit board?
Cheers
James

Bobzilla · Member

Hey, new here (obviously). Trying to learn what it takes to crack the Swift GT ECU. Current electrical problems have sidelined the current ECU and it's time to do something big. My choices are standalone, or emulator and I know very little on each.

Any help I can glean from your minds would be greatly appreciated!